Usually we use this platform to teach or announce or update and that is the ultimate goal of this post but we are going about in a different manner.
Allow us to pose a question . . . and with that we hope for responses . . . It is actually a question that was posed by another individual on a media forum. Here is the ‘question’ . .
How about a radical idea ? What about the concept of a one-new-man worship community lead by a ‘believing ‘ pastor and a ‘non-believing’ jewish teacher. ( believing and non-believing in reference to accepting the fact of Yeshua / Jesus of Nazareth as the promised Messiah ) . I mean, we all worship the same God, right, so wouldn’t it work ? Yes or NO . . . and why or why not . . .
Now, please understand this is NOT an anti-semitic attack. We love the jewish people and the people of Israel and the Land of Israel and understand and teach the premise of blessing Israel and supporting Israel. So whaddaya think ?
Now before you react, please pray, ponder, look at the Word and then respond . . .
 And we will be ‘taking this somewhere’ . . . Blessings – J
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Kathy Walker
August 30, 2012 at 7:12 am
Well, the one thing I can see them agreeing on is they are both waiting for him to come. But neither follows the same side of the bible… so could be a short sermon before they agree to disagree and tell everyone thanks for coming and lets eat. I will stick with where I am now.
Tracy Still
August 31, 2012 at 7:26 pm
I do not see it working. You would have a situation where the leadership was unequally yoked. A house divided against itself can not stand. IMHO
Al
December 18, 2012 at 8:48 pm
This is basically the situation we have had for 2000 years now. The Gentiles hold to Messiah, while steeped in iniquity, due to the fact that they have refused the instructions of Yah. Conversely, the Jews keep the Instructions of Yah, but view the name of Jesus (Yahshua) as a swear word, due to at least 1700 years of persecution by the the Christian Church, in His name. Each holds that which the other needs to be complete. At the end of the 6th day, but before the 7th day, when light is mingling with darkness, Yah will make clear to those, who are of a pure heart, the truth of who we are and who our brothers and sisters are.
prodigal101
December 18, 2012 at 9:43 pm
Then allow us to pose a couple of follow-up questions.
Why would you use the title ‘Gentile’ for those you declare ‘hold to Messiah’?
If the ‘church’ is the reason for Judaism’s refusal of Jesus ( y’shua ) as the
Promised Messiah for the past 1,700 hundred years, what is your explanation for
Judaism’s denial of His ‘Messiah-ship’ for the 200 years prior ?
With that said, I don’t see the connection between the original question and the
responded observation of the historical failings of these two groups.
I would pose one other query . . . how do you define ‘those of a pure heart’ ?
Blessings –
Al
December 19, 2012 at 4:51 pm
Prodigal 101,
Blessings to you also. I will answer your questions and then make a short comment afterwards.
Why would you use the title ‘Gentile’ for those you declare ‘hold to Messiah’?
This is how the dialouge is framed. The Chrisitian Church is basically comprised of those from the nations-the goyim=Gentiles. In the framework of scripture, there are only two sets of people. The goy (singular) which is always Israel. Then there is the goyim (plural) which is everyone else. In your original question you referenced a “believing pastor” and a “nonbelieving JEWISH teacher”. Your question laid the frame work for the term Gentile. It is not a term of disrespect. It is just very impersonal. I know you don’t mean anything by it, but the fact that you ask about it sounds like you took some exception to it. If we are talking about Jews on one hand, then we are talking about Gentiles on the other. This whole conversation exposes a chasm between the Jew and the Gentile.
If the ‘church’ is the reason for Judaism’s refusal of Jesus ( y’shua ) as the
Promised Messiah for the past 1,700 hundred years, what is your explanation for
Judaism’s denial of His ‘Messiah-ship’ for the 200 years prior ?
I never said that the Jews refused Messiah because of the Church. The Jews were partially blinded by Yah so that Messiah would be offered up as a sin offering for His people. The Jews have paid an incredible price for their arrogance. Yah bringing the Romans to destroy the temple and scatter the Jews to the nations for their rejection of Messiah was Yah’s judgment, not the Christian Church. None of this happened because of the the “church”. But, from early in the 3rd century, under the Roman Emperor Constantine, the “church” made a deal with the devil; Forget the things of the Jews, which were actually Yah’s things, and worship Messiah through the framework of the Roman Christian Church, and the persection of the “believers” would end. The “church” agreed and the Jews basically became open game for whatever the “church”could think up. There is no need to go into what happened after that. It is all recorded in the historical record and carried on until Hitler’s holocaust. The historical Christian Church hunted, killed, and tortured the Jews for no other reason than being a Jew. Convert to the Pagan Roman Church or die. Century after century of living in this evironment , with all of these things done in the name of Jesus, how do you think they would react? Through all of this, the Jews held onto the foundational things they had been given from the beginning of time and through the grace of Yah, they maintained their ethnic purity. I am giving more than you asked for to make the point.
With that said, I don’t see the connection between the original question and the
responded observation of the historical failings of these two groups.
The problem is, these things, to a large extent, have not been reconciled. My guess would be, you at some point, expect the Jews to see the light and become a part of the Chrisitian Church. For the most part, I don’t believe that will ever happen. The Chrisitian Church is full of Babylonian sun god worship which is offensive to Yah and the Jews. It has been that way since the 3rd century and is still with us today. Don’t get me wrong, Yah loves His people, both Jew and Gentile. The one holds fast to Messiah, but in a condition of lawlessness (iniquity). The other holds fast to His instructions that were given from the beginning, but refuse the lawlessnes of those who bear the name of Messiah, as though in the name of Jesus these things are okay. What a quandry!!!
But there is a light. Since the Jews regained possession of the land of Israel and Jerusalem, many are turning to Messiah while keeping the commandments of Yah=Messianics, both Jew and Gentile, One New Man in Messiah. This has everything to do with the question you posed.
How do you define those of a pure heart?
Those who relingquish their systematic religious beliefs (both Jew and Gentile) and humble themselves before the Father, to know and understand what His Word says and conform to it, bringing into existence the Israel of Yah where their is not distinction between Jew and Gentile.
My intent is not to offend, but to speak of these things without hesitation and to up end long held false beliefs that divide us.
Blessings to you in Yahshua
prodigal101
December 25, 2012 at 11:56 pm
No offense taken. One of my concerns is the issue of being ‘unequally yoked’ ( 2 Cor 6:14 ) . . . a believer and an outspoken non-believer ‘ministering’ together to a group of born-again believers. I can’t imagine Paul giving Festus free-reign in the local congregation the next Shabbat after Festus’ declaration that he was ‘almost persuaded’ . . .
Al
December 30, 2012 at 11:50 am
I also believe this scenerio creates the situation of being unequally yoked=just basically wouldn’t work. The two are worlds apart, yet both playing out their respective parts under the time frame that Yah has set in place from the beginning. The Father is not caught off guard by all of this and He still has a plan in place to bring together those that are truly His, be they Jew or Chrisitian (Gentile).
If you would indulge me, I would like to ask a question. Let’s change one word in the question you posed and see where it takes us:
“How about a radical idea ? What about the concept of a one-new-man worship community lead by a ‘believing ‘ pastor and a Messianic jewish teacher. ( believing and Messianic in reference to accepting the fact of Yeshua / Jesus of Nazareth as the promised Messiah ) . I mean, we all worship the same God, right, so wouldn’t it work ? Yes or NO . . . and why or why not . . .”
Just to qualify the question, the term “believing” pastor refers to a Chrisitian pastor and all that implys. Would be interested in your thoughts.
Be Blessed in Messiah
prodigal101
January 3, 2013 at 9:25 pm
Before I comment, clarify what word we are changing. Thanks –
Al
January 4, 2013 at 4:18 pm
Change ‘non-believing’ jewish teacher to ‘Messianic’ jewish teacher
prodigal101
January 4, 2013 at 6:37 pm
Let’s ‘fine-tune’ just a little more. Are we saying ‘messianic’ in the sense of believing in a ‘messiah figure to come’, or ‘messianic’ in the sense of ‘acceptance of Yeshua of Nazareth as the promised messiah that has come in the flesh and will return in the last days according to prophecy ?
Thanks for your indulgence . . .
prodigal101
January 4, 2013 at 9:06 pm
Although, I think I see a little loophole in this scenario. As you said, ‘a believing pastor’, with a traditional ‘christian perspective’ “and all that implies” puts a different spin in it. If the pastor is traditionally christian, then there is a built-in conflict since the jewish teacher will be involved in the feasts of the Lord and Sabbath and proper biblical halakah ( walking out the ‘talk’ ) while the traditionally christian pastor will be tied up with christmas and easter and sunday sabbath and ‘grace means the law is null and void’ and Jesus came to deliver us from the curse of the law, and we all know that the law is the curse’ . . . all of that coming together into one pot could present some challenges . . . nothing to big for our Father, but challenging none the less.
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Al
January 8, 2013 at 10:28 am
I would like your perspective on something. What is the outcome of those of the christian church who reject the ways of Yah (primarily the sabbath, feasts, and so on) and cling to the pagan rituals of christmas, easter,….., but have accepted Messiah as their salvation? I am referring to them either passing from this life by their death or still rejecting these things as Messiah returns to gather His people to Him. This is in the context of Matthew 7:22-23;
Matthew 7:22-23
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
22 On that Day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord! Didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we expel demons in your name? Didn’t we perform many miracles in your name?’ 23 Then I will tell them to their faces, ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!
prodigal101
January 8, 2013 at 11:07 am
Yeshua states in Matthew 5 that those that annul or lessen or relax the least of the commandments and teach others to do the same will be least in the Kingdom . . . but they are in the Kingdom. Eph 2:8 tells us that we are “saved by faith” . . . Yeshua spoke these words to the thief on the cross – ‘today you will be with Me in paradise’ . . . Acts 15 sets the stage for Paul’s teaching concerning ‘another gospel’. We are saved by faith ( which IS a verb ) . If we add anything else to that statement, we are promoting ‘another gospel’. Matthew 7 ( the passages you mentioned ) is referring to the recognition of a ‘relationship’ and not just an ‘exercise of daily practices’. I will agree that there is a biblical premise for the ‘keeping of the commandments’ as an indicator of our relationship with Abba through Yeshua. At that point, it becomes a ‘matter of the heart’ , a matter which only YHVW can judge. What do you do with all those that keep the Torah and reject Messiah ? ‘For there has not been a law written that will make a man righteous before GOD. ‘
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Al
January 8, 2013 at 3:37 pm
Without Messiah,I don’t find in scripture where there is room for any at the end, even though they keep the instructions. I understand perfectly what you are saying about all of this. I have heard many say that if they make heaven by the skin of their teeth, that will be fine with them, just as long as they make it. This more from the christian church. I tend to believe that the understanding that the instructions are for today comes through the spoken word (having it explained to them), but also, because of the sheer amount of time the church has believed the way they do about this, revelation knowledge is a necessity. Most will never opt for more instruction when they basically live without much to begin with, but are still on their way to the kingdom. How do you personally approach that, or are my assumptions wrong?
prodigal101
January 10, 2013 at 1:05 am
I am not sure that I fully understand the question, but allow us ( Rhonda and I ) to say this. It’s funny how at times we can protest something that we don’t understand, all the while doing the thing that we protest, and not realizing that we are doing the very thing that we are protesting . . . ( gee, does that make us ‘protestants’ ? ) Romans 2:14 For when those of the nations, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. Why ? Because HE has begun the process of ‘writing it on our hearts’ Jer 31.
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Al
January 4, 2013 at 7:48 pm
Acceptance of Yahshua of Nazareth as the promised messiah
prodigal101
January 4, 2013 at 8:15 pm
In our humble opinion, not only would it work, but would be a great illustration of the prophecies of Ezekiel 37, Isaiah 11:13, and Zech 9:13, the ‘tree’ in all it’s glory in Romans 9,10 & 11 and the ‘one new man’ of Ephesians 2 , which is actually not a brand-new man but the renewal of how this body was intended to walk in the first place . . .
Al
January 5, 2013 at 1:35 pm
I agree fully of all that you have said. It has been and will be hard sledding until the Father brings revelation knowledge to both christians and jews to break down the wall that separates us one from another, that has been in place for centuries. I personally believe that the two witnesses (both Ephraim and Yahudah) will and are working in concert with each other to break down the walls that divide as Ruach HaKodesh reveals the Fathers will and that fact that we are one in Messiah. To that end my prayer is that we all work together with patience and understanding in the midst of a centuries old problem.